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High Speed Tracking Shot
Published : 8th July 2004
I need to track a motorcycle travelling at about 90 mph. It has
to be 1080 24P. I am thinking of maybe a mini-helicopter??? It has
to cover about an 1/8th of a mile. The bike will be flying about
25-30 feet high and I want a birds eye view of that. Any idea where
I can find such a thing?
Raoul Germain
DP
Los Angeles
>I need to track a motorcycle
travelling at about 90 mph. It has to be >1080 24P. I am thinking
of maybe a mini-helicopter? It has to cover >about an 1/8th of
a mile. The bike will be flying about 25-30 feet high >and I
want a birds eye view of that.
I don't know about helicopters, but contact doggicam systems at
818-845-8470. They may have a rig to suit your purpose. I just saw
a demo reel of theirs and they have killer footage of motorcycles.
Dan Coplan
Cinematographer / DIT
www.dancoplan.com
The radio-controlled helicopters don't appear to be outfitted with
1080p/24 camera heads. Flying speed would also be an issue unless
trailing the motorcycle is okay.
The best option may be an inexpensive helicopter shooting out the
front or side using this new aerial mount I recently tested for
DV magazine.
www.aerialexposures.com
... I believe they have a rental outlet in LA - it should be on
the website.
The alternatives would depend on the situation - Skycam or a rail
system could work in an enclosed environment like a stadium. Impossible
of course for motocross.
Robert Goodman
Photographer/Author/Helicopter fan
Philadelphia, PA
Depending on your budget you might want to go with Spydercam or
Cablecam. They have put in rigs that cover thousands of feet and
have the capabilities to reach excessive speed.
Contrary to belief that stadiums are the only place for usage they
can be rigged anywhere using construction cranes.
Both have contact info on the websites :
http://www.spydercam.com
http://www.cablecam.com
Mike Gerzevitz
HD DP
GerzHD
http://www.mikegerz.com
Raoul Germain writes :
>I need to track a motorcycle
travelling at about 90 mph. It has to be >1080 24P. I am thinking
of maybe a mini-helicopter?? It has to cover >about an 1/8th
of a mile. The bike will be flying about 25-30 feet high >and
I want a birds eye view of that. Any idea where I can find such
a >thing?
I believe you're talking about something like "Coptervision"...
www.coptervision.com
However,
no radio controlled helicopter can fly anywhere near that fast.
Moreover, no inexpensive to rent full sized helicopter can accelerate
anything like a motorcycle. Although this rule is not always observed,
helicopters with mounts are usually limited to VNE (Velocity Not
to Exceed) 90mph, so if you do go the full sized route, be sure
the pilot understands what's being asked for.
Back to the shot: for a helo to keep up, it would have to be moving
down the course before the motorcycle started and if it slows to
be overtaken by the motorcycle, the helo would quickly fall behind,
and before it could catch up, you'd be past the end of the course.
So no matter what, you couldn't get true parallel tracking. But
since the entire course is only 1/8 of a mile(215 yards), what about
positioning a camera on an aerial lift midway down the course. If
you need the entire shot then you could shoot it in pieces by moving
the lift down the course. Your ability to make height adjustment
would also be far more precise.
Just a thought.
Brian Heller
IA 600 DP
Raoul Germain writes :
>I need to track a motorcycle
travelling at about 90 mph.. The bike will >be flying about 25-30
feet high and I want a birds eye view of that.
That flying bike thing is the scary part to me - good luck getting
the stunts right on an HD show budget. My prescription would be
to shoot the bike standing still on a bluescreen/tarp from overhead,
with the rider going through the motions, shoot a matching aerial
(stills would do), and composite. It's a VFX shot, in other words.
Tim Sassoon
Sassoon Film Design
(watch the lighting direction)
If you have a decent budget try going with either
Spydercam ( http://www.spydercam.com
)
or
Cablecam ( http://www.cablecam.com
).
Both can provide a rig that can fly in all directions at speeds
around 60mph and will deliver a much more stable shot than a mini-helicopter.
They can also be rigged almost anywhere with construction crane
access.
Mike Gerzevitz
UW HD DP
www.mikegerz.com
>It has to cover about an 1/8th
of a mile. The bike will be flying about 25->30 feet high and
I want a birds eye view of that.
Raoul :
When you say "birds eye view", are you talking about a
top view, side view, front view, rear view or on-board view. There
are many specialized products out there to help in achieving the
shot, but in order to head you in the right direction, further description
of the "shot(s) needed" are in order.
Sincerely,
John Sheeren
Camera Operator
1st AC
Houston, Texas
Raoul,
We've done similar shots often when shooting racing boats. To do
it RIGHT, you need a standard helicopter (Jet Ranger, Hughes 500,
etc..) with a side-mounted gyro-stabilized camera mount. Wescam,
Spacecam, or the new Cineflex are several examples. The helicopter
can (in the hands of a good film pilot) easily track along slightly
ahead of the bike, and slightly offset to one side. If the shot
calls for looking back to a head-on view of the bike, we can crab
sideways or fly backwards to get any parts of the heli out of frame.
To pull this off safely, you need a pilot who can also function
as an aerial coordinator, and one who has stunt flying experience.
It's not a terribly difficult shot, but would probably require at
least a day of prep and one full day of shooting for run-throughs
and multiple takes. I'd be glad to point you to qualified people.
Good luck with it !
Steve Cassidy
http://www.cameracopters.com
I'm a little confused - is the bike going to hit a ramp and then
go 25-30 feet into the air? And you want to track it directly from
above? Hey, this isn't the forum to discuss artistic points - but
if you're looking at it from a "bird's eye view" - will
you be noticing the motion?
I must be missing something here. I would thinking track it from
just about any other angle would exploit the jump better. But maybe
I just don't get it. Correct my confusion.
And the course - how long is the run up? Can a plane do it?
RC planes can do 90mph - even faster (some jet powered models can
go over 200 mph) I don't know the payload and monitoring might be
difficult.
How high up does the camera need to be?
Dale Launer
Writer / Filmmaker
Santa Monica
How about mounting the camera with wide angle lens to and above
the bike, then removing the mounts in post? Doggiecam would be a
good starting point to find a suitable mount.
My 2 cents
Florian Stadler, D.P., L.A.
www.florianstadler.com
Brian Heller wrote :
>Although this rule is not always
observed, helicopters with mounts are >usually limited to VNE
(Velocity Not to Exceed) 90mph, so if you do go >the full sized
route, be sure the pilot understands what's being asked >for.
I would be really concerned about rotor wash from a full sized helo
doing 90 mph on the motorcyclist executing the jump...
Mark Smith
>How about mounting the camera
with wide angle lens to and above the >bike, then removing the
mounts in post? Doggiecam would be a good >starting point to
find a suitable mount.
Lots of good suggestions but lets keep this thought close in our
thoughts: there is a living breathing human who is driving the motorcycle
at 90 mph and flying through the air on it. He probably already
says a few prayers before he does this anyway. I am sure he'd like
to see his wife/ kid/ dog/ buddies at the end of the shot and not
from the point of view of a stretcher being loaded into an ambulance.
There is significant risk.
Over head from a Helo would present rotor wash issues.
The cable cam thing is really the way to go but can it accelerate
with a CR500 Honda that is laying rubber the first 100 feet of the
run. I'd say 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, hitting the take off ramp going
85-90-ish mph?
KH11 spy satellite, or one of those Predator drones flying at 200
feet?
Mark Smith
How about mounting the camera with wide angle lens to and above
the bike, then removing the mounts in post? Doggiecam would be a
good starting point to find a suitable mount.
I thought about that - but where would you mount the recorder? Unless
you're talking about an HDCAM unit mounted up that high - could
make the bike unstable - you don't want that going 90mph and hitting
a ramp.
Dale Launer
Writer / Filmmaker
Santa Monica
Although this rule is
>not always observed, helicopters
with mounts are usually limited to >VNE (Velocity Not to Exceed)
90mph
In our Hughes 500, with a Wescam 24 or Cineflex, we have no VNE
restrictions dictated by the camera mount. The limiting factor is
aerodynamic drag from the camera system, which holds us down to
a top speed of around 120 knots, depending on where the camera is
mounted.
We just spent a week shooting and chasing 100 Ferraris, Lamborghinis,
and Vipers racing from L.A. to MIAMI for the show "The Bullrun".
The Lambo left us behind only because he kept doing over 180mph
on Interstate 10! The cops were not amused.
Steve Cassidy
http://www.cameracopters.com
Mark Smith writes :
>I would be really concerned
about rotor wash from a full sized helo >doing 90 mph on the
motorcyclist executing the jump...
Me too. That's why I said "so if you do go the full sized route,
be sure the pilot understands what's being asked for."
-- and why I suggested an aerial platform...
Brian Heller
IA 600 DP
No such thing as stunt men on this show...more like daredevils.
Its a one shot deal and I am going to be covering several of them
in the coming months(does that make sense.) Its not moto-cross.
I figured the mini helicopters would not meet the speed requirement.
Its more of a WANT the shot than NEED the shot.
We already have cameras EVERYWHERE, and I hoped to put one in the
sky.
Thanks for the help,
Raoul Germain
DP
LA
Kudos on the helicopter concerns. Anybody work on "XXX"?
I heard the VD stunt double got a little too close to the heli during
a stunt....in fact making contact. Hence, my vote for a cable camera....
Mike Gerzevitz
UW HD DP
Brian Heller wrote :
>That's why I said "so
if you do go the full sized route, be sure the pilot >understands
what's being asked for."
> -- and why I suggested an aerial platform..
" just a little bit lower with the chopper, no there's nothing
to worry about Mr Morrow"
Achieving a true overhead tracking shot is a real problem for this
situation.. I have to admit I know a little bit more about this
than the description presented to the list, if this is what I think
it is.
The combination of acceleration, terminal velocity, and low impact
on the performer of the event truly limits what is possible. Especially
since ideally one would want to achieve this with camera placement
and not focal length.
Mark Smith
My last tuppence & I am outta here.
Make the distance jumped smaller till the speed at the end of the
take off ramp is 60 something MPH which might put in the speed range
of a cable cam rig.
Skip the 24p capture as it doesn't capture enough frames for the
shortened jump. Shoot S 16 @ some elevated frame rate, minimum 120
fps, transfer to 24p HD & go home happy. You can substitute
35 mm for S16 if you want, but in either case plan on ringing some
one's account for some real $.
Transfer film to 24 P HD & life goes on, hopefully no one gets
hurt.
Mark Smith
Try these guys, Dean Bailey and George Peters
http://www.ultimatearm.com/
I think that this is the answer for you.
I am not to sure if they can put a High Def camera on there.
Regards,
Ed Gutentag
Cinematographer
WEB Page : www.edgutentag.com
IMDB Page :
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0349177/
>I figured the mini helicopters
would not meet the speed requirement. Its >more of a WANT the
shot than NEED the shot. We already have >cameras EVERYWHERE,
and I hoped to put one in the sky.
By "bird's eye view", do you mean looking vertically straight
down? If that's the case, then a heli wouldn't be the best idea...because
of the rotor wash, which extends downward and behind the heli. Rotor
wash tends to completely dissipate beyond about 40 feet.
That's why I mentioned tracking ahead of and slightly offset from
the bike. It all depends on how close you want the camera to the
rider.
On the plus side, with a helicopter, it's much easier to compose
and change shots on the fly (pardon the pun) as compared to a cable
rig which requires a lot of set-up time for each shot.
We just worked with some "bike-jumping guys" in Vegas
who had two 25 foot tall ramps set up about 40 feet apart, and they
were jumping all afternoon getting 35 to 40 feet of "air".
For them it wasn't a difficult move at all. Just make sure you use
someone who's GOOD at it !
Steve Cassidy
I don't recall what kind of perspective this shot was supposed to
have. If a fair amount of telephoto flattening is tolerable, why
not mount the camera on a high crane, point it straight down, and
just tilt the sucker instead of tracking it?
You might even be able to work in a bit of boom swing to provide
some actual tracking motion.
Dan Drasin
Producer/DP
Marin County, CA
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